Curse

Apok · Jun 05, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

For Divert Hexes, I'll say think of doubling the recharge effect. Even for an elite skill, that's a bit overpowered. Remember PnH? Yeah, this would be pretty much the same thing.

Everything else, I don't care about. Sure, why not?

Krill · Jun 05, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

How has no one jumped on this yet? That skill is completely insane. It outclasses multiple heavily-played monk elites by a wide margin. I really can't see anyone not running this, at least until it makes any sort of hexes completely non-viable and is no longer needed. Whether you like playing against them or not, hexes are a healthy component of the game. They're one of the few components left that are worth interacting with.

Didn't read to the point where he said 5e and buffing the utility of the skill; clearly that would be overpowered in a 3 monk backline.

Would love to see RC self target or LS nerfed so you're not at such a huge disadvantage vs. teams with LS in split monk scenarios. One of the reasons hex pressure works so well in HA is that LS is terrible for handling large amounts of condition pressure.

Krill · Jun 05, 2010, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The problem with hexway in HA, aside from the fact that hexway is about the easiest build to play since 2007 ish, is that your counters are useless against just about every other team. Rits with convert, paragons with empathic, etc. On top of that, with HA's personal must-bring skill list (song, make haste, etc) you really don't have that much room to counter.

Good balanced will hardly ever lose to a hex pug. There are two ways to deal with hexes, prevention and removal. Removal is the buildwars component (PnH, deny, ER, etc.) while balanced already has plenty of prevention with a PD mesmer and magebane ranger. Usually what happens is the PD mesmer will shutdown the hex team's VoR mesmer, the ranger will camp the LC necro, the prot will pre-veil the warriors for any anti-melee hexes that do get off and the team will discipline their spacing to avoid multiple hits from incendiary arrows or disease (the main pressure component in a hexway).

*lemming* · Jun 05, 2010, 07:42 PM // 19:42

PnH sucked against hexes in GvG because it doesn't have any redbar component.

Killed u man · Jun 05, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Good balanced will hardly ever lose to a hex pug. There are two ways to deal with hexes, prevention and removal. Removal is the buildwars component (PnH, deny, ER, etc.) while balanced already has plenty of prevention with a PD mesmer and magebane ranger. Usually what happens is the PD mesmer will shutdown the hex team's VoR mesmer, the ranger will camp the LC necro, the prot will pre-veil the warriors for any anti-melee hexes that do get off and the team will discipline their spacing to avoid multiple hits from incendiary arrows or disease (the main pressure component in a hexway).

But then you're A) ignoring the fact that it requires a great amount of skill to get the many 1second cast keyhexes on the more than 4 different hexcasters and B) completely ignoring Mantra of Resolve (Which gaurantees Backfire + VoR every 20 seconds) and other anti-interrupt skills.

On top of that, when you start PD'ing shit, you're pretty much hoping enemy Monks suck, because a balanced relies on mesmers to shut monks down.

Being able to interrupt something has never been, or should never be, an arguement in defending something isn't OP.

Hexway IS an overpowered, in HA and GvG. And as I've said before: in GvG it doesn't get run too much not because it's not overpowered, but rather because the community themselves think it's boring (after a week) and because of the natural defence the format has against these gimmicks. (Splitting) But even then, throw some sins in your hexway (like SW prooved) and you can counter-split just fine.

In HA, it's been the only build (together with rspike and balanced) which have been in their same overpowered state ever since NF release. (With balanced being less OP, and rspike harder to form -you actually need vent-)

Krill · Jun 06, 2010, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Being able to interrupt something has never been, or should never be, an arguement in defending something isn't OP.

Didn't say it was, but it's not that hard for a balanced team to shut down enough of the hexes. It does suck when you have to start PD'ing skills right away, but the whole point of bringing PD over another elite is so you have the flexibility for lock down when your team needs it. All the ranger has to do is stand right next to the LC necro and hit an interrupt whenever a skill warms up, slowing down their skill use and hopefully disabling LC and rend long enough to start pushing some kills before your team takes much pressure.

The nice thing about balanced and why I respect the people who play it every day is that it can be adapted to most metas and still be the best holding build or at least be on par with the gimmickers. Last year when the full blown hexways started coming back and balanced groups were still running UG they got raped, but gradually switched to a ranger snare for more shutdown, adapted their play style and now win most of those matches.

Hexes are overpowered in relation to how much skill it takes to run them, but then again you say that every meta build is the most overpowered ever, only something brain dead PvE'ers would run.

Killed u man · Jun 06, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Hexes are overpowered in relation to how much skill it takes to run them, but then again you say that every meta build is the most overpowered ever, only something brain dead PvE'ers would run.

I'm just trying to screw back all of the redicilous power creep. Instead of nerfing all the redicilous hexes, bringing divert hexes on par with other elites, and actually making it the first viable hex removal (Don't kid yourself, PnH is far from viable on a real monk, only when you're 100% sure you're gonna face hexway it's good) monks have. Ironically, this is more powercreep, but it's powercreep to bring down an intire line of OP gimmicks, so I don't see a problem with it.

RC is still a powerhouse for conditions, and LS still got the rof + condi removal niche. It won't take place on every Monk's bar, it will take place on every Monk's bar when everyone is running hexway (like in early euro hour), which it should since it's an elite called "Divert Hexes" implying it makes a Monk capable of dealing hexes.

And if you think DH will be insta-win against hexways, you should re-read the 3/4 cast time clause, aswell as the +- 7 second average recharge it will have. It'll be a worse PnH (upon release) with interruptable cast time, no duration effect (the 90% faster clause on PnH), but instead a +-150/180 heal. (Which is still far less than WoH)

Krill · Jun 06, 2010, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And if you think DH will be insta-win against hexways, you should re-read the 3/4 cast time clause, aswell as the +- 7 second average recharge it will have.

Exactly why it wouldn't be a viable replacement for LS or RC on your main prot's bar and would only be useful for a 3 monk backline. As far as supports go I think there's already a nice variety of options, an OoS or OoB rit for weapons and party heals or a divine favor monk with PnH or spellbreaker. The chances of facing a hexway in a normal run are quite good so PnH is still a good elite and it's also useful for relic runs when you're facing multiple snares or the prot is failing with veil.

I've also long wanted LC and VoR in particular to be toned down, those two skills are still the foundation of any hexway. LC should be reworked to a single target skill and VoR should go back to what it was before, a hex that punishes attack skills. That seems more logical than buffing counters to hexes.

In the end though nerfing gimmick builds isn't going to suddenly make honorable players out of everyone. It's on to the next broken build or quit playing altogether. Given how dead this game is the later should be avoided.

bungusmaximus · Jun 06, 2010, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Dont really agree with AoE changes, id rather go with changing cap radius. AoE spells are shit easy to interrupt, and teams pack so much defense that you need at least something to blow shit up,its not a bad thing that people die in HA lol. People that ball should be punished imho, it isn't that hard not to ball, and if the opposing team forces you to ball (ie. push team back in base on priest maps) the opposing team obviously has the upper hand.

Agree with the rest of the skill nerfs tho, BBsway is retardedly strong when played right. Only good thing about it is that its not very PUG friendly, as its a spike build, and it forces kills by locking down several key characters at once.

Searing flames has been a bloody plague for way too long, and spirits strength rt/a is just a tad over the top. Problem is, that the nerfs shouldnt be that harsh that balanced is your only option. I like build variety, and anet is already on the right way by nerfing cheesy Spoil Victor.

Corporeal Ghost · Jun 07, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I'm just trying to screw back all of the redicilous power creep. Instead of nerfing all the redicilous hexes, bringing divert hexes on par with other elites, and actually making it the first viable hex removal

Do you even understand what the term power creep means?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Don't kid yourself, PnH is far from viable on a real monk

You're just wrong here. It might not be optimal on a "real" monk, but it's certainly viable. Your proposed Divert Hexes is certainly stronger than PnH, by a wide margin. It's probably stronger than Sheath against anything but omegaspike. I'd pressure my monks into running it over RC for general ladder play unless condi-pressure re-develops into a viable build. The proposed change makes the skill incredible powerful and versatile, and it's got a lower recharge than pre-nerf PnH, which was ridiculously overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And if you think DH will be insta-win against hexways, you should re-read the 3/4 cast time clause, aswell as the +- 7 second average recharge it will have.

As for 7 seconds average recharge...that's only in effect against hexway, where this skill is obviously ridiculous.

Against non-hex builds, you're going to be pulling maybe a cracked armor and a deep wound, and it's got a ~4-5 second recharge, which is certainly overpowered on a hex removal, and still quite playable on deep condi removal. The redbar component is strong enough that it can be run over RC if a few tweaks are made elsewhere in the build. It also offers ludicrous bar compression. The only real weakness I see is against condi pressure (where it's still quite good--just not as good as RC) and in split situations where you need to pull blinds and weakness off melee rapidly and your other monk isn't around with his quick-recharge removal. It's comparable to Dismiss here, though, which already sees play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Hexway IS an overpowered, in HA and GvG.

This is irrelevant toward whether or not hexes should be part of the game. Perhaps the current iteration is overpowered, but hexes themselves should not be non-viable. The answer is never to introduce hard counters. Not only is that lazy, but it also vastly increases the reliance on build as opposed to actual play.

Hexway needs to exist as a viable counter to physical shitstomp. If you're losing to it with "balanced", obviously your build is not as "balanced" as you thought it was. Although that's a semantic argument I probably shouldn't be starting. "Balanced" should never be heavily favored to win against everything. Rather, it should probably be a slight dog to everything, but not have any horrendous matchups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Would love to see RC self target or LS nerfed so you're not at such a huge disadvantage vs. teams with LS in split monk scenarios.

They're fine. That's the choice you make when you elect to bring RC to have a better anti-pressure 8v8 presence. If anything, I think we want to see the removal of the self-target on WoH.

Edit: everything below this line--didn't mean to hit submit

One of the reasons hex pressure works so well in HA is that LS is terrible for handling large amounts of condition pressure.[/quote]

So run RC if you want to beat hexes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

This not 100% to blame on format issues (like you claim) but also the fact that AoE simply is too OP when hitting multiple people. The matter of fact is that AoE is semi-effective when hitting single targets (Rodgorts still pumps bars down, aswell as SH, etc), but is completely off the charts when it' hits multiple targets.

If AoE does not blow teams up when it hits multiple targets, there is zero reason to bring it. That's the entire point. It sucks when it hits one guy. It causes mild pressure on two or three. And if you get four or five people with it, their backline falls behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And that wouldn't be that much of an issue, if people had the time to fix their errors (Aka, unball). But because all these AoE skills (Splinter, fire AoE, RoJ) pump out their punishment so fast, the enemy simply gets no chance to redeem itself.

This is why no one dies anymore. There should not be an infinite number of second chances. If five people on your team get hit by a Savannah heat, you should wipe. Moreover, fixing your balling problem should not be retroactive. You don't unball only because you see Savannah Heat animation on you; you unball before that so Savannah Heat never has an opportunity to couple with Earth Shaker and blow your whole team up.

[quote=Against every other team, unlike PnH, it won't be useless, and you actually got little brother of RC, with about haf the healing, and twice the recharge.[/quote]

PnH is actually pretty good against random stuff as long as your build has enough redbar capacity in it. It's good for keeping blinds, cripples, random water magic and other shenanigans off warriors; stuff that is present in basically every build to one degree or another.

But the entire point of having hard counters (which is in itself not the greatest idea) is that they are useless against what they are not countering. This is what made 7 second PnH so insane. It's still good against not-hexes. This is like saying Aura of Stability is not good enough, because if the other team decides to run hexes or condi pressure or whatever with no knockdowns, it sucks. The skill is obviously powerful, but as a hard counter, it really needs to have zero utility against the stuff it isn't countering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

my effort to make HA a versatile and fun place to play.

Sounds like you actually want to make HA a place where only the build you like to run can win.

Krill · Jun 07, 2010, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

They're fine. That's the choice you make when you elect to bring RC to have a better anti-pressure 8v8 presence. If anything, I think we want to see the removal of the self-target on WoH.

Almost nobody runs RC in HA anymore because of the split problem and the fact that LS is superior against everything but heavy condition pressure and far easier to use. The old mechanic of 3/4s cast for condition removal skills (RC, mend, dismiss) and 1s for hex removal (veil, remove, cure) was good and there was no reason for LS and PnH to break that with 1/4s removal of conditions and hexes.

So while we're on the topic I'd like to see LS reverted to its old function of negating a set amount of damage with a 1/4s cast and PnH bumped up to 1s cast.

Killed u man · Jun 07, 2010, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Do you even understand what the term power creep means?

I said myself the idea is not ideal, but buffing hard counters to get rid of shit builds is hardly undesirable. This is not the same powercreep dartbord buffs we've seen over the past 5 years, this is an accurate, focused buff to keep an intire line of builds (hexways) in check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

ou're just wrong here. It might not be optimal on a "real" monk, but it's certainly viable.

Have you played GvG monk? (Mainly prot?) mAT's have been lost because people ran PnH on their prot because they expected hexway, only to find the enemy team was condition heavy.

Saying PnH is viable is as much as saying Spirit Rift is viable. Just because you can think of one situation where it's "the shit" doesn't mean it's viable. Riftspike is still redicilously strong (Both in GvG and HA) However, run rift in a regular balanced, it'll be next to useless.

PnH is strong against hexways on a prot, especially paired with deny hexes, but don't forget that pretty much every hexway also carries poison, disease, bleeding and deepwound, or a combination of them. So saying that PnH was hands-down better against hexway means you didn't play too much Monk during hexway metas. (Both HA and GvG) The fact that PnH has no redbar component whatsoever makes it a pure-counter skill, and completely non-viable on a Monk.

Run PnH: Face hexway? You're a little but better off than RC, you can keep your frontline clean, but you've just thrown all your redbar and condition removal out the window.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

As for 7 seconds average recharge...that's only in effect against hexway, where this skill is obviously ridiculous.

The difference between a 3/4s cast and a 1/4s cast seems to be forgotten. On top of that, it's "only" 3 hexes it removes. Hexways have Lingering Curse, Suffering, Parasitic, Wastrel's Demise and so much more covers for the really nasty hexes. (VoR, SV, Backfire, Empathy, Insidious) It's not like this one skill will keep the intire party clean. It will barely keep 2 characters clean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Against non-hex builds, you're going to be pulling maybe a cracked armor and a deep wound, and it's got a ~4-5 second recharge, which is certainly overpowered on a hex removal, and still quite playable on deep condi removal.

You're going to pull a poison aswell, wether you like it or not. And if you face a team with a water ele or a bsurge, this skill is far from "completely overpowering RC". I would like to see you manage with a 7-8 recharging condition removal against a "balanced" build. As I've said, against anything non-hexway, it'll be worse than RC. It can keep diversion and Shame of the heal monk, but that's nothing holy veil can't handle now. It'll have half the healing RC has, and usually twice the recharge.

On top of that, I never made it for GvG in the first place, but I did take GvG into concideration not to make it completely overshadow other options. Divert Hexes is a much needed skill in GvG. Too many times people are too scared to bring PnH cuz they know it'll be completely useless if they don't face hexway, and sometimes they're too scared not to bring PnH cuz they know they'll wipe against xx good hexway. Divert Hexes will be the golden road in case of doubt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Hexway needs to exist as a viable counter to physical shitstomp.

That's why Hexway in HA rapes just about anything, but hyper-defensive builds. (Which are A) a problem on their own and B) only auto-loss of the hexway's monks suck. If they can catch 5-6 spikes in a row, thats usually enough to wipe a team)

Also, I love how you say: "Hard counters shouldn't exist" when now you say "Hexway nees to exist as a viable counter". Contradiction much?

But on your mindset: Divert Hexes should exist as a viable counter against hexway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

So run RC if you want to beat hexes? (For HA)

And not take Aegis? I clearly said it's bout the keyskills you need in HA to win. Not having Aegis in HoH is a severe disadvantage. As a matter of fact, it's the only reason people prefer LS over RC. RC with RoF is better than LS + Aegis in every situation but 1. And that 1 situation is HoH. (Which has the largest weight)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

If AoE does not blow teams up when it hits multiple targets, there is zero reason to bring it. That's the entire point. It sucks when it hits one guy. It causes mild pressure on two or three. And if you get four or five people with it, their backline falls behind.

My AoE still blows people up, given they stand in it. And you seem to confuse HA with GvG a bit too much. In GvG, blowing up once isn't the end of the match. You still have a hard res timer every 2 minutes, and you can redeem later.

In HA, blowing up once means the end. And I disagree with you saying that when 2-3 people are within nearby range, they should be punished by loss of the match. Especially when HA maps have so much choke points.

I'm not saying AoE should be useless, cuz they way I changed it will make it far from useless (Better in some situations even), it will only stop making it autowin when you manage to earthshaker a monk and a second person in AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Sounds like you actually want to make HA a place where only the build you like to run can win.

I've played HA for 5 years now. I've dominated it for 4. I really don't care what builds get nerfed and whatnot. I just want a format where as much builds as possible are viable. Hexway, BBway and rspike have been 3 bottlenecks for a long while now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

This is why no one dies anymore.

GvG =/= HA. HA matches last no longer than 4 minutes, with the exception of few. Hexway matches are fought in less than 2 minutes. BBway matches usually in about 60-90 seconds.

These "noone dies anymore" situations you speak off only occure when "good" HA teams fight eachother, with balanced.

Corporeal Ghost · Jun 07, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I said myself the idea is not ideal, but buffing hard counters to get rid of shit builds is hardly undesirable.

Yes. Yes it is. This is exactly what got us garbage like Aura of Stability Peace and Harmony, and Patient Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

This is not the same powercreep dartbord buffs we've seen over the past 5 years, this is an accurate, focused buff to keep an intire line of builds (hexways) in check.

Many of the current problematic skills can be traced to supposed-logic. That doesn't make them any less terrible for the game. Granted, they are not as completely godawful as some of the random elite buffs were. That's hardly saying much, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The difference between a 3/4s cast and a 1/4s cast seems to be forgotten.

It's not forgotten. But it's not like 3/4 skills are automatically interrupted. GvG teams frequently have as many or more interrupts than HA, and yet they manage to not instantly wipe despite having a backline postulated almost entirely on two 3/4 second elites rather than two quarter second elites.

[Killed u man]On top of that, it's "only" 3 hexes it removes. Hexways have Lingering Curse, Suffering, Parasitic, Wastrel's Demise and so much more covers for the really nasty hexes. (VoR, SV, Backfire, Empathy, Insidious) It's not like this one skill will keep the intire party clean. It will barely keep 2 characters clean.[/quote]

Lol. I like how you emphasized that only for me. So one elite is now making two guys on the opposing team worthless. How is this good balance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

You're going to pull a poison aswell, wether you like it or not. And if you face a team with a water ele or a bsurge, this skill is far from "completely overpowering RC". I would like to see you manage with a 7-8 recharging condition removal against a "balanced" build.

First of all, the cap on conditions in YOUR skill is 3, so that will never take it beyond 5 seconds recharge. I really doubt I'd be removing multiple water hexes at once, but if their water ele is really bad enough to be hex-stacking one guy knowing I have a low-recharge deep removal, I'm fine with that.

Secondly, Restore essentially has two primary functions; it cleans up spikes and it performs maintenance on random throwaway conditions. Cleaning up spikes is going to cost you five or six seconds of recharge, yes. Pulling poison off your midline is going to cost you three.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

As I've said, against anything non-hexway, it'll be worse than RC. It can keep diversion and Shame of the heal monk, but that's nothing holy veil can't handle now.

If nothing else, this gives you incredible bar compression. But there is plenty of else. Worse than RC is fine. RC has had a chokehold on GvG for well over a year because it is so powerful. Less powerful than RC is still heavily playable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It'll have half the healing RC has, and usually twice the recharge.

Half the healing is plenty. Twice the recharge is manageable. You're only using RC on recharge when you need to contain blind, disease, and poison. These minor drawbacks are incredibly small compared to the ability to essentially never lose to hexes unless you're letting Signet of Humility resolve regularly, and still have an elite-worthy skill against other builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

On top of that, I never made it for GvG in the first place, but I did take GvG into concideration not to make it completely overshadow other options.

Many of the all-important "necessary" HA skills were obviously not designed with HA in mind. Yet people bring them anyway because they are arguably overpowered in the format. Just like your Divert Hexes will be. I don't know what this is about not overshadowing other options. There are a few extremely narrow metagames where I wouldn't want that skill in my backline, but they're all very contrived.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Also, I love how you say: "Hard counters shouldn't exist" when now you say "Hexway nees to exist as a viable counter". Contradiction much?

Nope, not much. Hexway should not be a hard counter to physical pressure. It's a soft counter. Physical pressure is weak against hexes, but it's still a winnable matchup if soft-target armor and healing are correctly balanced (they currently aren't). You saw pretty good examples of this just before TA died entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

But on your mindset: Divert Hexes should exist as a viable counter against hexway.

It does. It's just utterly useless against literally every other build in the game. This is the exact function a hard-counter should serve. And it's pretty easy to dig up some old Guild Hall threads showing that not only has it been run, but that it was basically necessary in its current state for a couple of months, without needing to have insane (or even ANY) utility against non-hex builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And not take Aegis? I clearly said it's bout the keyskills you need in HA to win. Not having Aegis in HoH is a severe disadvantage. As a matter of fact, it's the only reason people prefer LS over RC. RC with RoF is better than LS + Aegis in every situation but 1. And that 1 situation is HoH. (Which has the largest weight)

From what I've observed, Life Sheath came into existence because of Palm Strike. It stayed in existence because the majority of HA pug monks (IE, the ones that need pre-defined bars and cannot just win running whatever they want) can pretty much only spam quarter-second casts at deep wound spike indicators. There are another 6 skills on that bar besides Sheath and Aegis. Drop the weakest, or stop bitching that your elite that is not meant to be strong against condi pressure is weak against condi pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

My AoE still blows people up, given they stand in it.

You can't balance the game such that the effective tools are only effective against the very worst of players. AoE needs to do something against everyone; not just the baddies who will stand in it for full duration. Otherwise, there's literally no reason to bring AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And you seem to confuse HA with GvG a bit too much. In GvG, blowing up once isn't the end of the match. You still have a hard res timer every 2 minutes, and you can redeem later.

There is no confusion. In GvG, the matches are longer. There are "second chances" as it were, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that people need to die, or you endless stalemates that come down to tiebreaks. The primary difference is that dying matters more in HA. That really doesn't mean it should happen less, though. It simply means it's more important and that matches are over faster on average.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In HA, blowing up once means the end. And I disagree with you saying that when 2-3 people are within nearby range, they should be punished by loss of the match. Especially when HA maps have so much choke points.

I guess we just have a fundamental difference of opinion, then. If people have positioning that is that bad AND the other team coordinates multiple people to punish them for it, they need to die. On one-shot annihilation maps, this means they're probably about to lose. If you don't like the fact that taking three simultaneous deaths makes you lose the match, maybe you should play a format where that's not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Hexway, BBway and rspike have been 3 bottlenecks for a long while now.

What you seem to miss here is that builds have to exist such that people who are pretty bad at the game still have a reasonable shot at winning. These guys shouldn't be absolutely dominating everyone, but then, if I read any post in these forums that isn't yours, they aren't. They're probably overpowered (just like everything else that is being played), and a little mindless, but I don't really see them holding Halls for hours on end every day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

GvG =/= HA. HA matches last no longer than 4 minutes, with the exception of few. Hexway matches are fought in less than 2 minutes. BBway matches usually in about 60-90 seconds.

I'm not seeing the problem. I would be absolutely thrilled if the average GvG match had no engagements that went longer than 4 minutes, with pressure mirrors wiping in a minute and a half*. Based on your statement and personal experience, I'd say this is more a reflection on the average HA monk than anything else.

*The analogy you need to be making, by the way is that an HA match is the equivalent to a GvG engagament; a full GvG match is closer to a complete trip to Halls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

These "noone dies anymore" situations you speak off only occure when "good" HA teams fight eachother, with balanced.

So your ideal game balance revolves around people who are horrible at Guild Wars? AoE needs to be balanced to give people several seconds to adjust to it. Hex pressure needs to be balanced so that everyone who does not entirely counterbuild it can hold up indefinitely. Or am I misconstruing something here?

TheHaxor · Jun 08, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

I agree with the removal of HoH relic run and some of the skill updates aren't bad. However, I strongly disagree with the removal of KotH and Cap Points. I honestly don't think you know how to form a strategy to play these maps effectively. In Cap Points you are rewarded by being aggressive at certain times, but are punished for others. This is completely fine. It requires you to figure out these times on your own.

Krill · Jun 08, 2010, 05:54 AM // 05:54

The thing I don't like about 3 way cap points is how much of the game can be out of your control (same with relic runs for that matter).

Here's a typical scenario:

Red (you) - 17 holding center and base
Blue - 17 holding base
Yellow - 12 holding base

It's getting down to the last few minutes and yellow, having not capped the center once decides to push your base with their ghost and a few players. At that point in time you don't have the resources to prevent yellow from capping your base and keep blue from capping the center to score the winning points. Also, if blue is a typical balanced team holding they will be smart enough to have a split ready to prevent you from scoring any points off a split to yellow base. So basically there's no winning move, blue will win because of yellow.

Killed u man · Jun 08, 2010, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I agree with the removal of HoH relic run and some of the skill updates aren't bad. However, I strongly disagree with the removal of KotH and Cap Points. I honestly don't think you know how to form a strategy to play these maps effectively. In Cap Points you are rewarded by being aggressive at certain times, but are punished for others. This is completely fine. It requires you to figure out these times on your own.

When the third team is retarded, you can play aggressive, this is hardly "fine". Cap Points is flawed.

The fact that when you engage at a third team, the second team will always be free makes it flawed from the ground up.

If you can't see/understand this by now, I gues I won't be able to make you think otherwise, but Cap Points is definatly not won through tactics.

Martin Alvito · Jun 08, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

If you can't see/understand this by now, I gues I won't be able to make you think otherwise, but Cap Points is definatly not won through tactics.

1v1 cap points is always won by tactics. The problem with three-way cap points is that teams can guarantee that another team loses. You can't guarantee that on 3-way relic runs, but you can make it extremely likely by not opponent swapping when you should.

The old altar hold mechanic doesn't fix that problem entirely. It's still possible for one of the new entrants to engage the other for the entire match to ensure that the holding team retains. (Which is also already possible now in all formats to some degree. See: Chamalee's alliance circa 2008-2009.) But bringing back the old mechanic would, at a minimum, be different, at least no worse than the present system and quite possibly better.

I say pull cap points because the old holding maps and Sacred Temples were simply more fun. I see no reason to reintroduce Scarred. In the current skip fest, it will be almost everyone's second match, and that map is a big deterrent to new players because you're almost guaranteed to face skilled resistance every time. Finally, they need to reintroduce the ability to pick up the Res Orb on Broken Tower. That was incredibly fun, shortened matches and promoted skilled play.

Your skill changes are dodgy. KD is a broad problem right now. Because it is OP, Monks run Mo/W with Balanced or Dolyak in virtually every format. The issue in HA is that Channeling is too good in three-way maps, so Monks can't run W secondary. What Monks need is a class-specific solution. The best thing I can come up with is an Aura of Stability rework that moves it to Divine Favor, removes the targeting restriction and prevents the NEXT knockdown. Someone else may be able to think of a better resolution.

Further, removing hexway from the game by buffing yet another Monk elite to godlike status is just a bad idea. We have ample evidence to date that godmode Monk elites (or elite energy management available to Monks) are always bad. Hexway is strong because every efficient party heal in the game has been nerfed to oblivion, so it's impossible to red bar through it against quality frontline pressure. With party-wide defensive skills gone, the solution is to improve party-wide heals, possibly buff energy management slightly, and fix WoH to compensate.

Without quality party-wide defense, you won't be able to build a house even with party-wide redbar. It'll just take the edge off hexway and force them to run a shutdown solution to your party heal (which in and of itself reduces their pressure and promotes skilled play).

lithiumfish · Jun 08, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

while i did prefer the old maps much more i think ha is currently too inactive for them to be reintroduced, there is barely enough people for 3v3 halls let a lone a 4v4 map and a 3v3 map prior to halls

Krill · Jun 09, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Hexway is strong because every efficient party heal in the game has been nerfed to oblivion, so it's impossible to red bar through it against quality frontline pressure.

Party healing hasn't been nerfed that much for HA. All that was hit was the PwK recharge, but few players hold PwK for the armor or skills like channeled strike anymore. Instead they dump it off a 40/40 set on recharge so it's about the same healing over time as the old skill.

The cornerstone of any hexway and why it's so good is LC. Combined with spammy deep wounds like wounding strike you can easily have multiple party members at the -40% healing threshold and the whole party taking quite a bit of pressure from degen. Rending the HB right after they cast channeling and HB further reduces healing (~7s of no HB) and makes it really hard for them to use heal party. That's the basic formula for any hexway working.

Martin Alvito · Jun 09, 2010, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Party healing got hit very hard a very long time ago. The consequences are just coming home to roost (again) right now. It's not like anything has been buffed in the last year that suddenly made hexway a problem, and hexway has not dominated the meta during the past year. It merely has enjoyed periods of dominance. That suggests that the root of the problem is not the build itself.

Yes, HP is terrible once the HB is removed. That's a large part of the problem. You run HB because you need it to buff HP. To protect HB, you have to take interrupts to shut down Rend or you're going to die. That's bad on several levels, because it restricts build diversity in an environment where the multiple Halls win conditions already restrict builds severely. You're forced into a Monk elite and forced into taking multiple midline interrupts. That limits the ability of the meta to evolve to cope with problem builds.

PwK isn't a decent party heal. It's merely the best available solution given present balance. You take it because HP desperately needs an assist and better alternatives are not available. This forces teams into either a Rt primary or a midline Rt secondary, which further limits build diversity.

I agree that WS is absurd, but other posters are correct when they point out that the skill is the only reason Derv sees play. Derv needs a rework for both PvP and PvE, and this was a more pressing problem than buffing PvE Mesmers IMO. WS needs a rework in that context.

At 20%, LC isn't the problem. You are correct that it makes the hexway go. But killing it would kill hexway entirely. We don't want to remove hexway from the game. It needs to exist as a meta counter. We just don't want it to dominate.

Obviously, the risk in fiddling with party healing is potential damage to the GvG meta. I'd argue that GvG will remain screwed up until the tiebreaker is fixed irrespective of any buff to party heals. But I could be wrong.